[troybilt]

Troy, several months ago there was a Dean Sundahl framed banshee with that style of a arms on it at Sandtrax here in Tulsa. It had 18" of travel both front and rear and also got setup for dual LED lights(one on the frame and the other on the bars). It was cool as h_ll and looked like it would eat up some serious whoops. I don't normally care for banshees(used to have one) but this one was different LOL. Cool pics BTW. Pretty rare to see a banshee with his frame and A arms and even more rare to see a R with them. I never knew that Dean made an R frame with his A arm's. That's the 1st one I've EVER seen. After looking closer I guess it's not really a R(looks like a banshee radiator and I see the oil tank for a fourstroke I'm guessing). It's still cool and looks better with the R plastic instead of banshee plastic.

Dennis, yes I've seen a banshee, not sure if its the same one. I have pics of it somewhere. I think it was green and black if I remember correctly. There was another in DW not too long ago, 3-4 years athat was blue and grey. Similar setup.

 

[troybilt]

I will try and answer all the questions I can.
For vibrations I will use the stock anti vibe stem a fasst flexx handle bar vith anti vide inserts and I will ballance the crank. If the vibrations is to intense I will build a gokart with the kx engine and go back to the counterbalanced gasgas engine.


Will try to make it happen

That build is nice! Followed it before on atvriders when you were building it like a elsinore replica.

Awesome thanks Ikas! Look forward to you build. Even if the vibes are worse than expected with the KX500, don't give up, there is other options to try as well...

 

[troybilt]

....counterbalanced gasgas engine.

Thought I'd mention, the original prototype GasGas 300 motor came from the GasGas dirt bike and didn't have a counter balancer, either. GasGas used an off balance (spedifically balanced) flywheel to help tame the vibes, much like a harmonic balancer. This typically works for a narrow range of rpm.

 

[troybilt]

yes troy. instant center of rotation; in this specific application its our "roll center" that is needing comparison of the two suspension types.

troy, will you be using finite element analysis in your frame/chassis design?

the sundahl suspension is unique. it seems more for high speed straight line stuff. there is alot of mass to deal with. it would definitely need some work to make it balanced.

john

Yes I will be using FEA, I also have my own personal SoMat field computer for data aquisition, (hand-me-down, from work...LOL!) so I can directly measure the stress at the weld toe and correlate that to a fatigue estimate. I plan on building a rear grab bar that I can mount the SoMat too and record real-time data and feed that into my laptop.. As far as, FEA, I only personally have access to ProMechanica, which is marginal at best. Really need to use IDEAS or Ansys for more acurate FEA.

 

[Dariusld]

Another custom goofy front end. Found it hereDean Sundal long travel - Product Reviews - Banshee HQ Forums

 

[fearlessfred]

Fred, check out these juxtaposed aarms... (when you going to do a build up on that desert sled? )

no,I have not seen this.It is not exactly what I had imagined. it looks like the shock angle is way wrong. as far as my desert sled goes ,its in pieces .every time I think Iwill get goin again ,one of my four boys cost me a ton of money for something

 

[fearlessfred]

Hey, I'm the guy with the build on atvriders forum. I'm a huge trx250r fan my original idea was to buy a lobo or narrow laeger but found a w-tec for a good price so i could not resist to buy it.

The build is on a 2006 w-tec frame that started of with a gasgas 300 engine. I'm now starting to rebuild a kx500b engine that I will fabricate new engine mounts and a exhaust for.

thanks for sharing.one look at your pic and I could see what troy was talking about.

 

[troybilt]

Here is another good naked pic...

 

[jcs003]

here is a technical article that we all can relate to:

http://www.promecha.com.au/leverage_linkages.htm

john

 

[uns]

Information was here.

Ask me more at http://www.trx250r.org AKA t r x 2 5 0 r .o r g

 

[ikas]

Forgot to mention that the spindles and tierods were changed on the 2009 frame to make it easier to steer. And they are lighter with the the cast aluminium then the welded 25crmo4 steel. And the brake calipers were changed in the front, I think they used two two pot calipers instead of two four pot calipers but not sure. The position on the rear caliper was also changed.

 

[eastwood]

The W-Tec is aimed at the deep ruted sand tracks of Belguim,Holland and Northern France and has had a lot of success in the endurance race scene as well as mx over the last decade. On the Hard pack tracks it doesn't have such an advantage . They can be ordered with the Zabel 2 stroke which is generally 800cc 4 speed or also popular big bore ktm 4 stroke.

 

[fearlessfred]

The W-Tec is aimed at the deep ruted sand tracks of Belguim,Holland and Northern France and has had a lot of success in the endurance race scene as well as mx over the last decade. On the Hard pack tracks it doesn't have such an advantage . They can be ordered with the Zabel 2 stroke which is generally 800cc 4 speed or also popular big bore ktm 4 stroke.

Im guessing there lack of success on hardpack would be from the lack of gains neg. camber .in hard turns the out side tire would be rolling over on its sidewall .on groved sand tracks this would not be an issue,jmo

 

[ikas]

The W-Tec is aimed at the deep ruted sand tracks of Belguim,Holland and Northern France and has had a lot of success in the endurance race scene as well as mx over the last decade. On the Hard pack tracks it doesn't have such an advantage . They can be ordered with the Zabel 2 stroke which is generally 800cc 4 speed or also popular big bore ktm 4 stroke.

The zabel engine is 700 2-stroke. ZABEL-Motoren - MX Zabel, Motoren & Racing used in sidecar motocross. The engine has also been used in the Maico 700 dirtbike. Another 2-stroke big bore 2-stroke that has been used is the Austrian MTH 650 based on the ktm540mx engine.
The biggest advantage I have felt in the w-tec is the smoth suspension but still has a nice feel when you land hard. Of course it has to do with suspension settings also but I feel such a big difference over the öhlins on my trx450r that I revalved and resprung for my weight. On both hardpacked and sand tracks.

 

[mennis1971]

Troy and everyone, the banshee I saw was green(never got to see the plastic for it) and had the flat top A arm like the pics that were posted on the bansheehq link. It had a true spindle though instead of just the flat meal plates like in those pics. I don't imagine they handle to well as they were designed for desert racing and hitting whoops and stuff at high speeds in a straight line(pretty much). Ikas I forgot to mention the zabel and I'm glad you brought that up. It's another 2 stroke monster motor. It's interesting that you say it doesn't handle bad at all on hardpack. I'm not surprised personally, especially after seeing some vids of them. Those guys were hauling @ss and catching some major air too. I just wonder how well they hold up to abuse and how much maintenance the front end requires. Keep us posted please. That's an awesome build your doing.

 

[troybilt]

The Zabel motor is an interesting piece. I've done some research on it, from what I know. One of the engineers from Maico went out and started their own company if I remember right. I was looking at a zabel motor a couple years ago. I even joined the sidecar motorcross forum... hehe....

Not long after that I found a video of a Maico 700, it was a 2010 model I believe in Dubai. I couldn't believe how much torque that thing had... the dude was idling around in 4 or 5th gear and then hammer it... It was a smooth of 2 stroke I've heard. I've looked several times since then and could not find that youtube video anywhere...

 

[troybilt]

Fred, I wonder by looking at the upper control link, that it could also be setup to have some postive camber tracking thru the articulation. It seems to be set just a shade off to the center which would be a shorter arc path. This would tend to give it more camber thru its travel.

I'd like to find a chassis somewhere and do more research on it.

I think for desert racing this suspension could be setup killer, with more ground clearance for the silt beds. This design doesn't have he same limitations on aarms length for suspension travel. Theoretically you mount the lower aarm back by the foot peg if you wanted too, lol!

 

[etccb]

I think it would be a blast to dune one of those w-tec with the belguim sand track setup.

 

[jcs003]

Fred, I wonder by looking at the upper control link, that it could also be setup to have some postive camber tracking thru the articulation. It seems to be set just a shade off to the center which would be a shorter arc path. This would tend to give it more camber thru its travel.

I'd like to find a chassis somewhere and do more research on it.

I think for desert racing this suspension could be setup killer, with more ground clearance for the silt beds. This design doesn't have he same limitations on aarms length for suspension travel. Theoretically you mount the lower aarm back by the foot peg if you wanted too, lol!

you could also change the wheelbase length easier. adding a +2, +3 forward and etc. would be very easy and probably less expensive.

john

 

[fearlessfred]

Im with you on this,I would love to swing it thru its travel without the shocks,just to see what it does do. Im not sure but it looks like the lower attch.for the spindle isn't on a ball joint.it almost has to be a swing joint (only moves forward and backwards) I was thinking that the upper links frame mounting point would be placed were the caster would stay the same thru out the travel. these two things make me believe that the camber doesn't change .believe it or not Im allways looking to prove that my way of thinking could be wrong and would never be offended by someone else helping me do that.troy you treat people with great respect,and I admire you for this,but in my case feel free to tell me Im jacked up