[Aphillip562]

So I am planning my next build and have yet to purchase anything or really become set in stone on what I want. I do know what I want it for though, I want to build a bike that is only to be ridden on the sand and I want it to have massive power. Originally I was thinking that a 330 would be a great engine for this because it is powerful, yet rideable and much more reliable. However, I do start to drool when I hear a stroked out 431 puma start up. I have done a lot of reading about both setups on here and I have learned a lot but at this point I am still usure. I would definitely prefer to have the puma, because like I said it is the "king dingaling" of sand riding. I am not going to build it for drag purposes but rather for ripping around. I do like to go fast though and no matter what anyone says there is no way any quad can shred the sand like my CRF450, the point being I don't care if it is "hard to hang on". I guess the reason for posting this is I would like some input from current puma owners as well as people who had one and no longer do. Is it the kind of engine that you can take to the sand, and be confident it won't breakdown on you? I am a nit pick about details with my bikes so care and regular maintenance is not an issue, nor is taking the time to do things right the first time. For those who own/owned a puma, where did you buy it? Who built it? If it was not for drag purposes, what sorts of things did you have to take into account when deciding the components for it? Finally, if you could do it all over again, what would you do differently? Thanks for the help guys, this will be a big investment for me so I want to get the right parts and do it right the first time.

 

[derby]

I have owned 2 pumas and I would build another. The one that would interest you the most was built by hybrid engineering and it was a good solid motor. Had power everywhere and was very respectable at drag racing. It is not a motor that was fun to ride on a stock swingarm in the sand. I only dunned the bike. The weak link for me was the transmission. It had yukons but a hard 1st-2nd gear shift destroyed it all. When I repaired the tranny I had 1-4 back cut and the entire tranny cryo treated and it held up great. I parted with the motor only to build a drag puma. It is an expensive build and if you can't afford all the critical pieces like lockup, carb, pipe, ignition then you would be better off with a pro-x or esr motor. If you don't stroke a oem 88-89 crank and you are forced to buy a hot rods then it is a must to weld the tins up or go without the tins. There is plenty of other discussion about the right carb or right rod with this motor but everyone has an opinion.

I have never had arlan at led build me a puma but I think he puts together one of the most complete kits that I have seen dynoed. If you are on facebook you should check out LED performance and all his puma stuff.

 

[aka2slow]

led built my 430 puma just recently its the one he filmed while dynoing i believe its a good duner. i rode it all day never over heated was very fun to fly around the dunes yet very good at drags to. im planning to ride it all the way from the glamis store to china wall no doubt it will make it.

 

[Aphillip562]

Ya, ive seen where Carlos spoke of cryo treating as a must and from ive seen a lockout is almost a must, and who needs tins anyway right? Haha.

 

[derby]

If you decide to build a puma and are interested I will give you the contact info for the backcutting, heat treat, and cryo. It will cost less than half what a set of yukons will and will outlast yukons. The key is also starting with a good oem tranny and not one that is already worn out.

 

[erikyu]

try bdtm-carlos. my 431 puma is a beast has been kicking it for a year. welded tins, cryod-magflux gears, powder, polish, chrome-awesome toy!

 

[Pumashine]

try bdtm-carlos. my 431 puma is a beast has been kicking it for a year. welded tins, cryod-magflux gears, powder, polish, chrome-awesome toy!

Any pics?

My dune puma ran a year and a half before the tins came off. Has not had a problem since the tins were welded. Has run good for the last year and a half. So 3 years running and only problem was the hotrods 4 mil crank. The tins came apart on many of the guys building a 431 in 2009 and 2010. Pete at Hybrid built this one.

 

[bigred]

hey puma where was that green one u were building thought it was green think u were finishing it up this past winter never got a chance to see that one

 

[Pumashine]

The green bike is not a Puma, it hais the 412cc pilot motor 412cc.

 

[deadly]

Real power comes at a heavy price tag my friend. Personally when I go to build mine I'd get the tranny cryo'd, a lock out clutch, custom intake, big bore pipe, over sized radiator, crank welded and trued, bored to 41.5 Keihin AS carb and a CR250 ignition. And of course ported and custom tuned pipe. A Puma cylinder runs ~$1800 by itself. Add the rest of the stuff I mentioned and you're well over $4K.
Now take into account if your bottom end cases have to be bored, and then have all bearings and seals replaced not to mention that counter balancer and water pump rebuilt. (insert add more money here).

Oh yes, that $1800 cyclinder doesn't include a piston! - (add more money here).

Oops I did it again - now you need to run race fuel! Doh! (add more money here). <-- just something to realize your operating cost has increased.

The one thing I've learned over time (not to mention the hard way) is that when you cut corners eventually you end up paying double + for it. So commit and do it right or don't do it at all has been my experience.

There's a SMALL handful of good R builders and an even SMALLER handful of decent pipe builders. A person that can do both is invaluable. That is why I highly recommend having it all done by Arlan at LED Performance. IMHO where he excels over all others is not only does he understand the R but his custom pipe will be tuned specifically for your motor ensuring maximum power which if you can make a couple more ponies than an off the shelf pipe why would you not right? This "feature" also helps him custom tailor the power delivery to meet your needs and expectations.

Arlans numerous past and present day national winning motors! One of his national winning motors was recently featured in (IIRC) Dirt Wheels. To name a few of his history making motors were built for Gary Denton, Nacs Racing, Bill Balance, Barry Hawk, Jeremiah Jones the list goes on and on. It's quite unfortunate that Arlan doesn't have time to hang out on forums.

You'll hear people say, "Call around and find someone you feel comfortable with." I agree with this sentimate to a degree, but it always boils down to money in the end. Why do you think ESR sells so much product? I assure you it's NOT because of a superior product. I think that's a hard reality people don't like to admit. Money is always the end deciding factor.

And my personal opinion - don't "heavily" focus on peak HP. You need to look at the entire power range. Here's a real world scenario. You can make more peak HP than your opponent but if the opponents bike builds broader power faster you'll be playing catch up and by that time he/she is long gone - that's where you'll lose the race. I'll take a motor that has killer torque and builds broader power faster than a peak HP bike that takes forever to make real power any day.

Hope my ramblings makes sense

 

[atv fan 28]

http://www.trx250r.net/forum/engine...emoving-tins-430-puma-crank-3.html#post113833

 

[Aphillip562]

Deadly, thats exactly how I feel about it. Do it right. The first time. Money isn't coming out my ears but I do well for myself. So the extra 2k is money well spent if the end result is a well built bike that is "one-off". I see this as a long term project and I am already investing in a small shed just to house this project. I also emailed Arlan just this morning to get a baseline price for the build. I'm starting from the bare frame, and hopefully one day ill have something s god as you pumashine. Those bike shine like a diamond in a goats ass. Thanks for the input guys.

 

[derby]

If $4000 is the price then I would also call pete at hybrid just to throw another name out there. I have lost his phone number but I think tony (pumashine) has it in his sig. I know that puma cylinder was not $1800 or whatever deadly said. It is closer to 1100-1200 (from pete if I remember correctly) and it is a complete topend without plating. Also the build was not close to 4k, more in the neighborhood of $2500-$3000. My hybrid engineering puma turned a couple more hp than led's but it took some tunning.

 

[deadly]

I should clarify the $1800 price tag was just a quick search on what I could find them "typically" going for. Also, the vaporware build I mentioned included a custom pipe, intake, igntion etc.....
In all fairness I highly doubt Pete could do everything I mentioned for $2500 - $3000 making some if any any real money out of the deal.

The only way i could see Pete selling a Puma cylinder that cheap is if his business mindset is to make money on the labor not the parts themseleves? Hell look at BDT prices. They sell Pro-x 370's with piston for $1400.

FWIW I honestly have zero input/opinion on Hybrid Engineering.

 

[Pumashine]

The only way i could see Pete selling a Puma cylinder that cheap is if his business mindset is to make money on the labor not the parts themseleves?

CP Industries sets the dealer prices. I think the Puma top end is closer to $1200. Pete has built more Puma's for the member on here than any builders. His prices are the best and the work follows suit. He balances his own cranks, warranties them and all his labor. I don't see any other builders on here that balance cranks in house. His motors speak for themselves. Have never seen one not work correctly. Never heard of a complaint, even by Rered55 when his tins came off. Many loyal customers swear by the name Hybrid Engineering.

 

[deadly]

My prices were indeed too high. Darn that internet!

I just called Arlan and he sells Pumas for IIRC ~$1400 which includes piston, cylinder Nikasil'd, new reed cage, cut head and one other item that escapes me at the moment. That's a box of parts and no porting. that's a build it yourself kit lol. If a person doesn't want or need all of that then the price goes down from there. As far as warranty goes Arlan stands behind everything he sells/builds. If a person has an issue with their motor and they choose not to address it with him that's OK. That's absolutely their choice but why would they not? Customer service is 100% important to him. I think a person would be hard pressed to find someone that would say his customer service is anything but superb.

BTW - Aphillip562 Arlan did receive your email. You should expect a response over lunch hour or later tonight as that's when he usually responds to emails.

 

[acecarlos]

Many ways to build an engine, however; only one way to do it correctly. A Puma is one of those builds that needs to be done correctly.

We do build our own cranks, don't pound on the Tins like CrankWorks (we have a dedicated Die for 250R Cranks), however; once the Crankshaft is Stroked, Rod in place, Assembled and the Tins welded we do send the crankshaft to be Dynamically Balanced by an outside vendor that does nothing more than Dynamically Balance Crankshafts. NO builder that builds 250R engines has a Dynamic Balancer in house, not even us.

We can drill lightening holes and attempt to 'static' balance or estimate 'static' balance as well as anyone else can, however; it will not result in a properly balanced BB engine...only Dynamic Balancing will result in precision equal to or exceeding OEM specifications...the down side is the added cost.

Our Puma Builds cost exceed $4000 complete...IMO anything less than this is cutting corners. As Pumashine noted; all the builders mentioned are reputable names with Puma build experience, talk to a few builders and pick the one that you feel most comfortable with based on your budget and build type.

Carlos

 

[motofool250r]

The build on my puma was over 5k
remember custom pipe
transmission work
big expensive carb
500 port job
new reed cage
cr250 or msd ignition (750$ iirc)plus many dyno hours for ignition maps
Lockup clutch 300-500
none of this makes the motor pretty
Some guysare usging high end ceramic coated bearings n such
Dont forget this spaces the carb further back then 250r cylinder so relocating airbox mountjng tab/eliminator kit

and after all this you bolt it in the frame n break off all the motor mounts n have to gusset them

if you have sound police 300$ for big bore silencer

i love the puma power output but the motor is only one part if equation

if you run straight paddles(skat traks) nothing short of 6" ext swinger will cut it
then 450$ into shock revalve n rebuild

also need to run the best chain or you stretch it immediately n throw it off the zzz
One i use now was designed for busas costs 175$ discounted

excuse any typing mistakes typing on my phone from offshore in adriatic sea

 

[aka2slow]

Many ways to build an engine, however; only one way to do it correctly. A Puma is one of those builds that needs to be done correctly.

We do build our own cranks, don't pound on the Tins like CrankWorks (we have a dedicated Die for 250R Cranks), however; once the Crankshaft is Stroked, Rod in place, Assembled and the Tins welded we do send the crankshaft to be Dynamically Balanced by an outside vendor that does nothing more than Dynamically Balance Crankshafts. NO builder that builds 250R engines has a Dynamic Balancer in house, not even us.

We can drill lightening holes and attempt to 'static' balance or estimate 'static' balance as well as anyone else can, however; it will not result in a properly balanced BB engine...only Dynamic Balancing will result in precision equal to or exceeding OEM specifications...the down side is the added cost.

Our Puma Builds cost exceed $4000 complete...IMO anything less than this is cutting corners. As Pumashine noted; all the builders mentioned are reputable names with Puma build experience, talk to a few builders and pick the one that you feel most comfortable with based on your budget and build type.

Carlos

this is whats getting old alot of bs this is a builder that claimed he did all his own crank work no out source and now hes admiting that he does out source but he was really quick to talk trash about some one else for doing the same thing very sad all im saying is i wouldnt spend my money with guys that talk trash all day on forums find some one thats can let there motors talk for them. very sad

 

[Aphillip562]

Awesome, I was expecting to spend prolly 6k or more in the end. Definitelty not all at once, but keep parting it together. The engine though, I will spare no expense to ensure it is a quality build. Appreciate all the input. I started the "Puma Fund" yesterday with some cash from scrap on the farm. $200 baby, whoo! Lol, I canpay for the chain...