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Im really just starting to be amused. As a big shop that builds the best motors and a whole lot of them...what is building 1 drag motor to represent yourself in the industry to back up all your statements? As a builder you could build a motor, run it, get r&d from it (because power is power no matter surface you are on), then sell it and still make money off of it. Why wouldnt you want to build a shop motor for competition? Its a tax write off... In all honesty you got the race that YOU asked for and now you are not even into dirt racing? The worlds biggest and best trx250r advocate? Get a hill chassis and run it wherever you want, put struts in it for asphalt and 300ft and shocks to go tear everybody up on the hill that doubt you. Then part it out and never lose a dollar? Ive lost the respect that i had after reading this.

You could run this chassis anywhere and it would increase your internet sales if it was your picture with a big ole chrome pipe hanging out the side. Ill give you a good price and you will already be ahead of most of the competition. :)
View attachment 10891
Good post.
 

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2 strokes are making a resurgence..not sure if enough yet to justify full development. You never know...it will take an increased interest at the privateer racing level and eventualy at a factory level, that would be the ticket. Not likely to happen...

Carlos
 

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I personally think the 250r's can compete motor to motor but the 4 strokes have the advantage right now. Mats bike ran a .801 a few years ago and the ds's are running low 70's, raptors are running 80's. If sabers and pumas were at the track and on the dyno like these bikes we could compete given a few better part combinations like transmissions, bigger clutch setups. The saber and all of its latest technology is like 5 years old pretty much. I think with billet 250r cases, full billet transmission (shaft and all designed with thicker gears like the robinson), 10 plate clutch, big aluminum rod, and a few other little goodies you could see a 250r run 50's right beside k&t's raptor except probably more reliable.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
IMO CC's is a limiting factor, but because of combustion and cylinder scavenging effiencey.
Over square large bore cylinders have a disadvantage when it comes to port time/area when compared to a square motor with equal bore and stroke.
Problem is you start having durability issues with large strokes, A 86mm stroke is really starting to push the durability of any reasonably high rpm motor (8500-9000rpm)
So if that was the limit and and stayed with a square to slightly over bore setup you would be around 500-550cc
Don't get me wrong there is probably a hp increase with a 102.5mm piston over say the 97mm piston I run but not as much as would be seen from going from a 66mm piston to a 72mm piston.
The snowmobile guys have been turboing the sleds for a while with big HP increases and Gigot racing did a Saber 6 or 7 years ago making 150+ hp so the potential is there but it's going to take a shop with some money to make it all come together. These big cylinders like the sabertooth and liger are very scarce, Calvin told there is only a dozen ligers and not much more than a couple dozen of the sabers. There are more pumas then ligers and sabers put together, so how well developed is the pipe for these larger motors with so little interest.
4 stroke guys have allot of money being thrown at them between the factory and the aftermarket and the majority of the public is buying so it will continue, unfortunately 2 strokes are shrinking so the development is going to slowly dry up. That doesn't mean two strokes will not advance just not at the same pace they once had.
Very good post, informative and thought through. IMO, there is neglible gains in the "250r" bottom end motors yet to be discoverd based on the drastic out of square motor combo's. Speaking of the large cc motors of course
 

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IMO CC's is a limiting factor, but because of combustion and cylinder scavenging effiencey.
Over square large bore cylinders have a disadvantage when it comes to port time/area when compared to a square motor with equal bore and stroke.
Problem is you start having durability issues with large strokes, A 86mm stroke is really starting to push the durability of any reasonably high rpm motor (8500-9000rpm)
So if that was the limit and and stayed with a square to slightly over bore setup you would be around 500-550cc
Don't get me wrong there is probably a hp increase with a 102.5mm piston over say the 97mm piston I run but not as much as would be seen from going from a 66mm piston to a 72mm piston.
The snowmobile guys have been turboing the sleds for a while with big HP increases and Gigot racing did a Saber 6 or 7 years ago making 150+ hp so the potential is there but it's going to take a shop with some money to make it all come together. These big cylinders like the sabertooth and liger are very scarce, Calvin told there is only a dozen ligers and not much more than a couple dozen of the sabers. There are more pumas then ligers and sabers put together, so how well developed is the pipe for these larger motors with so little interest.
4 stroke guys have allot of money being thrown at them between the factory and the aftermarket and the majority of the public is buying so it will continue, unfortunately 2 strokes are shrinking so the development is going to slowly dry up. That doesn't mean two strokes will not advance just not at the same pace they once had.
So rsss, you are saying there is only around 2 dozen Sabers out there? Im curious who has built more and has the most experience with them?
 

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So rsss, you are saying there is only around 2 dozen Sabers out there? Im curious who has built more and has the most experience with them?
This seems like a very small number, at one time there were 4 right here in the PNW and those were people I knew, I am certain there are others just sitting.
 

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well I may have heard him wrong and Calvin maybe off a little himself but I know its a much smaller number than I expected.

I have only seen 3 sabers in Michigan (silver lake) 1 was Neil's from Saber racing, 1 came from WA that Frank (Neils buddy and jockey)bought and the other is another Saber racing customer.
Frank sold his I believe to a member on here in MO and Neil still has his but has not rode it in more than 3-4 years and the other Saber does 1-2 holiday weekend trips a year.

I think these cylinders are just bouncing around the country like the one from you state. Calvin also said that maybe only 6 sabers had power valves but I know where 2 of them are and probably a third if kevein gigot still has his.
The Saber that Frank bought came from Roger. That was one of the bigger Sabers I have seen in person. The other 3 are still here, Traxman has one, a guy in Seattle has one and DMR still has his last I checked. But these are just the ones I know of.
 

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So how many idiots are running a Saber in an MX chassis and built it for MX? :D I didn't realize I had 1 of about a dozen or 2 Saber top ends out there. My motor was originally built by K&T and with no expense spared. Gigots build some crazy stuff, they're not far from me out here in the midwest. They also have a big farming operation as well. Most of the stuff I hear about is the sleds and Pikes peak bikes.

Serious question, how does a Saber 560 or so compare to a Liger? Does the CR500 bottom end hold up much better?

I want to see the Honda back on top of the singles...
 

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So how many idiots are running a Saber in an MX chassis and built it for MX? :D I didn't realize I had 1 of about a dozen or 2 Saber top ends out there. My motor was originally built by K&T and with no expense spared. Gigots build some crazy stuff, they're not far from me out here in the midwest. They also have a big farming operation as well. Most of the stuff I hear about is the sleds and Pikes peak bikes.

Serious question, how does a Saber 560 or so compare to a Liger? Does the CR500 bottom end hold up much better?

I want to see the Honda back on top of the singles...
i think the amount of people with aftermarket cr500 bottom ends is so small that its had to judge that i know rss396 destroyed his a while back, but how many sabers and pumas have done that over the years. not a fair comparison due to lack of sampling on the cr500 bottom end side.
 
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The Saber that Frank bought came from Roger. That was one of the bigger Sabers I have seen in person. The other 3 are still here, Traxman has one, a guy in Seattle has one and DMR still has his last I checked. But these are just the ones I know of.
I belive dmr has 2, ones Rondo's, and another guy, not positive though. He also had one that had been trashed on the shelf.
 
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